The Gaming Den

The 'pare down the 3e skill list' thing has been done to death, but this is a slightly different question. Which skills would you take the longest to find out were missing?

My current list is as follows:
[*] Appraise
[*] Decipher Script
[*] Forgery
[*] Handle Animal
[*] Knowledge (engineering)
[*] Knowledge (local)
[*] Knowledge (nobility & royalty)
[*] Profession
[*] Speak Language
[*] Use rope

And questionable skills:
[*] Disguise
[*] Heal (until you try to stabilize someone)
[*] Knowledge (arcana)
[*] Knowledge (religion)
[*] Perform
[*] Sleight of Hand

I agree with pretty much all of those except for Disguise and Heal. Heal commonly gets used when someone is poisoned or diseased. And in my experience, it's pretty common to be playing with one bozo who thinks he's an International Man of Mystery and who tries lame Disguise tricks.

I would add Escape Artist, Profession and Sleight of Hand. Especially Sleight of Hand.

Perform is arguable - I mean Bards notice right away, but just about nobody else does.

Speak Language is probably on that list - what language characters speak is important, but the vast majority of characters just take their racial languages plus Int bonus, and it's fairly rare for a DM to keep using NPCs that the PCs can't communicate with somehow. Sure sometimes it's an occasional encounter where negotiation is an impossibility and sometimes it's working through an untrustworthy translator or a penalty on a diplomatic encounter - but when that sort of thing happens frequently in a game, somebody finds a way to pick up Tongues or telepathy at least as often as anyone sinks skill ranks into it.

Balance is also arguable, I mean there's stuff like Grease which specifically keys off of it, but it's just not worth taking out of class, since you know, using a ranged attack or spell covers most situations where it's a big deal in combat time, and using a rope or having access to 2nd level or higher mobility spells covers most of the situations where it's an out-of-combat challenge - and despite that only three classes in the PHB get it as a class skill, meaning that it's pretty much the domain of monks and low-level rogues who aren't cheesing Use Magic Device for scrolls of Spider Climb

I'll throw Knowledge: Arcana and Knowledge: Religion on that list. They're different than Spellcraft but the ways they're different aren't at all intuitive.

hogarth wrote:I agree with pretty much all of those except for Disguise and Heal. Heal commonly gets used when someone is poisoned or diseased. And in my experience, it's pretty common to be playing with one bozo who thinks he's an International Man of Mystery and who tries lame Disguise tricks.

Ah, my experience is that magic gets used for poison and disease, and that the IMM bozo prioritizes Bluff, Perform, Move Silently, Hide, Search, Listen, and Gather Information over Disguise.

But that is a good point. I should probably either take them off the list or start a new category.

hogarth wrote:I would add Escape Artist, Profession and Sleight of Hand. Especially Sleight of Hand.

Escape Artist comes into play as soon as someone gets grappled or tries to squeeze. That's actually fairly common. Profession is close to worthless, and if you pretend that Commoners don't need it to do their thing, it definitely belongs on the list.

Sleight of hand is something that I put one rank in for pretty much every character, for the 'quick draw' exploit. It's also something that rogues tend to go to town with.

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Josh_Kablack wrote:Perform is arguable - I mean Bards notice right away, but just about nobody else does.

Do your games tend to use Perform (Oratory) and Perform (Acting)? If not, what do they use instead?

Josh_Kablack wrote:Speak Language is probably on that list - what language characters speak is important, but the vast majority of characters just take their racial languages plus Int bonus, and it's fairly rare for a DM to keep using NPCs that the PCs can't communicate with somehow. Sure sometimes it's an occasional encounter where negotiation is an impossibility and sometimes it's working through an untrustworthy translator or a penalty on a diplomatic encounter - but when that sort of thing happens frequently in a game, somebody finds a way to pick up Tongues or telepathy at least as often as anyone sinks skill ranks into it.

I didn't even consider it as a skill. I guess that it could qualify for the list on that alone.

Josh_Kablack wrote:Balance is also arguable, I mean there's stuff like Grease which specifically keys off of it, but it's just not worth taking out of class, since you know, using a ranged attack or spell covers most situations where it's a big deal in combat time, and using a rope or having access to 2nd level or higher mobility spells covers most of the situations where it's an out-of-combat challenge - and despite that only three classes in the PHB get it as a class skill, meaning that it's pretty much the domain of monks and low-level rogues who aren't cheesing Use Magic Device for scrolls of Spider Climb

I usually sink 5 ranks into Balance when I have the skill points. And given that nobody takes Use Rope...

But I see your point. Perhaps what we need is a list 'skills nobody would notice if you folded them into another skill'. Tell someone to make a Tumble check when they want to balance, or to make a Climb check when they want to tie someone up?

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ModelCitizen wrote:I'll throw Knowledge: Arcana and Knowledge: Religion on that list. They're different than Spellcraft but the ways they're different aren't at all intuitive.

In games I've played, wizards tend to max Know (arcana). Partly for identifying weird stuff, and partly because they feel obligated and get the skill points.

Clerics tend to take Know (religion) for the turning bonus, but also to identify divine stuff. I haven't seen clerics take Spellcraft, though.

CatharzGodfoot wrote: Ah, my experience is that magic gets used for poison and disease, and that the IMM bozo prioritizes Bluff, Perform, Move Silently, Hide, Search, Listen, and Gather Information over Disguise.

I suspect I play more in the level 1-4 range than you do; I admit that after that point, magic makes Heal and Disguise kind of moot.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Escape Artist comes into play as soon as someone gets grappled or tries to squeeze. That's actually fairly common.

Weird. I think that in all of my experience playing 3.?E D&D and Pathfinder, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use Escape Artist who had ranks in Escape Artist. I think I've seen someone try to wriggle free without any ranks in Escape Artist, but that's just a Dex check.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Sleight of hand is something that I put one rank in for pretty much every character, for the 'quick draw' exploit. It's also something that rogues tend to go to town with.

I have no idea what exploit you're talking about. Does it involve performing Sleight of Hand as a free action with a -20 penalty?

Perhaps part of the difference in our experiences is that I haven't played with many rogues (hence hardly any Sleight of Hand or Escape Artist usage). And even when there is a rogue, he's usually more of a locksmith or scout than a thief.

EDIT: Oh, and I see Knowledge (local) used all the time, but mostly in city adventures.

Your games must be very different than mine.

Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana have lots of overlap but I would recommend getting rid of the spellcraft as opposed to knowledge arcana.

And use knowledge religion as a counterpart for divine magic. Further, even with spellcraft knowledge religion is useful for most games I run because secret cults and dark gods appear alot and knowing what your fighting is actually useful.

Similarly, how any game can run without knowledge: nobility and royalty, knowledge: history, and knowledge nature is way beyond me.

I have also totally recast knoweldge "local" as knowledge "modern" and lets characters know about fads, methods of dress, odd customs, music, notorious or famous individuals, or really anything else that might be found in a tabloid or newspaper.

CatharzGodfoot wrote: Do your games tend to use Perform (Oratory) and Perform (Acting)? If not, what do they use instead?

When that sort of thing is relevant for non-bards, I tend to see Diplomacy/Charm Person in place of Oratory and a combination of Bluff/Disguise/Illusion magic for Acting

I usually sink 5 ranks into Balance when I have the skill points. And given that nobody takes Use Rope...

Nobody takes Use Rope, because the DC to tie a knot around yourself is 10 and you can take 10 on it, and it can be done untrained So long as one person in the party can climb/balance/spider climb, dimension door, etc across an obstacle and there's enough combined Str in the party to haul the heavier members across or up whatever that obstacle is - then you can succeed in bypassing said obstacle in noncombat time.

And if are in the only group ever to actually use the grappling hook rules as written in the skill descript, then any rope which holds your weight for 4 rounds will always hold your weight, so just stay one arm's length off the ground for 30 seconds before starting any real ascent and laugh at the instructions to make the check in secret.

But I see your point. Perhaps what we need is a list 'skills nobody would notice if you folded them into another skill'. Tell someone to make a Tumble check when they want to balance, or to make a Climb check when they want to tie someone up?

But that's what's been done a lot before. As much as I am generally in favor of doing things along the lines of folding Spot, Listen (and sometimes Search) into Perception, folding Hide/Move Silently into Stealth, folding Climb, Swim and Jump into Athletics, folding Craft and Profession into Trade Skill ____ , folding Alchemy, Know: Arcana and Spellcraft into just Arcana, and so on and so forth, that's more-or-less what you said "has been done to death" in your first post.

My experience is that usually nobody actually knows what knowledge:local actually does.

And I wouldn't want to lose forgery, though you could roll it into profession I guess. Since profession really needs to be changed anyway.

In games I play in, nobody has ever used the diplomacy skill because it just doesn't work as written.

I personally have never seen Survival used outside of tracking, which happens surprisingly not that often.

ishy wrote:My experience is that usually nobody actually knows what knowledge:local actually does.

I've generally seen it used as a Knowledge (present) skill as opposed to a Knowledge (history) skill.

I have no idea why a Knowledge (nobility & royalty) check couldn't get resolved with a Knowledge (history) or Knowledge (local) check, depending on the nature of the question.

ishy wrote:My experience is that usually nobody actually knows what knowledge:local actually does.

The few people who do mostly don't use it as written. Knowledge: Local is the Bear Lore skill for humanoids. You roll it to find out if humans can breathe fire. And you can't roll untrained.

hogarth wrote:

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Escape Artist comes into play as soon as someone gets grappled or tries to squeeze. That's actually fairly common.

Weird. I think that in all of my experience playing 3.?E D&D and Pathfinder, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use Escape Artist who had ranks in Escape Artist. I think I've seen someone try to wriggle free without any ranks in Escape Artist, but that's just a Dex check.

Fair enough. The proportion of grappling monsters is huge, but as long as people are making grapple checks...

hogarth wrote:

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Sleight of hand is something that I put one rank in for pretty much every character, for the 'quick draw' exploit. It's also something that rogues tend to go to town with.

I have no idea what exploit you're talking about. Does it involve performing Sleight of Hand as a free action with a -20 penalty?

That's right.

hogarth wrote:EDIT: Oh, and I see Knowledge (local) used all the time, but mostly in city adventures.

I still haven't figured out what the difference between a Know (local) and Gather Information check, aside from Know (local) being somehow more limited to certain locations.

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souran wrote:Your games must be very different than mine.

Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana have lots of overlap but I would recommend getting rid of the spellcraft as opposed to knowledge arcana.

And use knowledge religion as a counterpart for divine magic. Further, even with spellcraft knowledge religion is useful for most games I run because secret cults and dark gods appear alot and knowing what your fighting is actually useful.

That's my experience too.

souran wrote:Similarly, how any game can run without knowledge: nobility and royalty, knowledge: history, and knowledge nature is way beyond me.

I have also totally recast knoweldge "local" as knowledge "modern" and lets characters know about fads, methods of dress, odd customs, music, notorious or famous individuals, or really anything else that might be found in a tabloid or newspaper.

I'm not sure what Know (nobility & royalty) is supposed to do that Profession (nobility or royalty) and Knowledge (history) doesn't.
And again, Know (local) vs. Gather Information.

And the limits of one's knowledge of history or locales is really poorly defined, which is why people don't bother with it. If you're from a place, you're going to know something about it. Can't expect every commoner to sink cross-class ranks into knowledge skills.

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Josh_Kablack wrote:

CatharzGodfoot wrote: Do your games tend to use Perform (Oratory) and Perform (Acting)? If not, what do they use instead?

When that sort of thing is relevant for non-bards, I tend to see Diplomacy/Charm Person in place of Oratory and a combination of Bluff/Disguise/Illusion magic for Acting

That makes sense. And who's going to argue that Profession (pianist) doesn't let you play the piano?

Josh_Kablack wrote:

I usually sink 5 ranks into Balance when I have the skill points. And given that nobody takes Use Rope...

Nobody takes Use Rope, because the DC to tie a knot around yourself is 10 and you can take 10 on it, and it can be done untrained So long as one person in the party can climb/balance/spider climb, dimension door, etc across an obstacle and there's enough combined Str in the party to haul the heavier members across or up whatever that obstacle is - then you can succeed in bypassing said obstacle in noncombat time.

And if are in the only group ever to actually use the grappling hook rules as written in the skill descript, then any rope which holds your weight for 4 rounds will always hold your weight, so just stay one arm's length off the ground for 30 seconds before starting any real ascent and laugh at the instructions to make the check in secret.

That is a nice tactic, and something that an actual climber would do as well. You're going to put your weight on a rope for more than a few seconds to make sure it holds.

Josh_Kablack wrote:

But I see your point. Perhaps what we need is a list 'skills nobody would notice if you folded them into another skill'. Tell someone to make a Tumble check when they want to balance, or to make a Climb check when they want to tie someone up?

But that's what's been done a lot before. As much as I am generally in favor of doing things along the lines of folding Spot, Listen (and sometimes Search) into Perception, folding Hide/Move Silently into Stealth, folding Climb, Swim and Jump into Athletics, folding Craft and Profession into Trade Skill ____ , folding Alchemy, Know: Arcana and Spellcraft into just Arcana, and so on and so forth, that's more-or-less what you said "has been done to death" in your first post.

P: 'Crap, I don't have any ranks in Balance!'
DM: 'Nobody ever takes ranks in Balance, just use Tumble.'
vs
P: 'Crap, I don't have any ranks in Balance!1
DM: 'Oh, I made up this new skill called "Balumble" that covers both, you should change your character sheet to say "Balumble".'

Ravengm wrote:I personally have never seen Survival used outside of tracking, which happens surprisingly not that often.

hogarth wrote:

ishy wrote:My experience is that usually nobody actually knows what knowledge:local actually does.

I've generally seen it used as a Knowledge (present) skill as opposed to a Knowledge (history) skill.

I have no idea why a Knowledge (nobility & royalty) check couldn't get resolved with a Knowledge (history) or Knowledge (local) check, depending on the nature of the question.

ModelCitizen wrote:

ishy wrote:My experience is that usually nobody actually knows what knowledge:local actually does.

The few people who do mostly don't use it as written. Knowledge: Local is the Bear Lore skill for humanoids. You roll it to find out if humans can breathe fire. And you can't roll untrained.

Exactly. Although I have seen Survival used to do exactly the same thing that Knowledge (nature) does.

CatharzGodfoot wrote: I'm not sure what Know (nobility & royalty) is supposed to do that Profession (nobility or royalty) and Knowledge (history) doesn't.
And again, Know (local) vs. Gather Information.

I have never had somebody take profession: noble before. Thats an interesting spin. Again, I realize that supposedly knowledge nobility is supposed to be limited based on your background but I make it fairly all encompassing because if you don't let characters pull a giles with their knowledge skills they become totally useless.

However, I would agree that profession noble and knowledge nobility are so siimilar you don't need both. And profession noble would apply to things like major domos, castialeans, and heads of household so its not like it would need to imply that you ARE a noble to have it.

Also gather information seems to me to serve a very different fuction than a knowledge skill. Knowledge local in my game would let you know something like "Brandon the bard is considered the best musician in the world" or the nation of thurundy has a national holiday today.

While gather information would let you know things like brandon the bards caravan passed through town two days ago and was planning to head east and the guards were all tired and liqured up.

And the limits of one's knowledge of history or locales is really poorly defined, which is why people don't bother with it. If you're from a place, you're going to know something about it. Can't expect every commoner to sink cross-class ranks into knowledge skills.

I agree that its badly defined, like i said I use it as a knowledge "recent history/events/pepole and places" skill. I also generally let people roll it untrained.

So what's everyone's favorite reduced skill set? Obviously dropping spot, listen, and search into perception is popular, but I can't recall seeing complete lists anywhere.

fectin wrote:So what's everyone's favorite reduced skill set? Obviously dropping spot, listen, and search into perception is popular, but I can't recall seeing complete lists anywhere.

Have an old thread.

That's perfect. Thanks!